What CNC router would you like to see at VHS?

Space and infrastructure
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A CNC ROUTER is used for wood, unlike the two metal CNC mills that we currently have. At this point its hypothetical as we don’t have the space, infrastructure or the money to support getting a CNC router.

Size
I would like to see a 48"x96" because it fits a full size sheet of plywood 4x8’. I could see having a 48x60" (4x5’) would work too as we could cut the sheet of plywood in half with a panel saw. It would make it harder to make furniture as most of the designs are built for a full sheet of plywood.

Shopbot PRSalpha
I am very impressed with the Shopbot (PRSalpha) 96"x48" w/6" Z axis ($17,845 USD) + $500 for dust extraction + $500 for shipping and duties, + bits and mills. It uses V-Carve as the software and is the best “one button go” system I have seen so far. This is the machine that MakerLabs and Techshop choose and there is a good reason for this. Its hard to make mistakes, its even harder to damage the machine, and you can teach someone the basics of how to use the machine in about an hour. Wholly hell is it expensive! ~$19k USD all in.

X-Carve
I have heard good things about the X-Carve (from inventables) but I don’t know much about it. Has anyone had any experience with it?

Cheep ones from AliExpress
My main goal would be to have it as simple to teach as possible. We lucked out with a Chinese laser cutter mainly because we had several very experienced, knowledge and dedicated people to get the laser cutter up and running after it arrived. I would be worried about not being able to repeat the success that we had with the laser cutter.

What CNC router would you like to see at VHS? What size? What features?

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I think starting with a smaller one like the X-Carve is a good idea. It’ll help gauge interest, and it’s small enough to not require tossing a bunch of stuff we already have to accommodate it.

It’ll also help people start to figure out what they could use a larger CNC Router for, and start getting them trained in the basics.

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For a DIY kit: http://www.smw3d.com/ox-diy-cnc-kit/

Or something ready to cut: http://printrbot.com/product-category/labs/cnc/

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I don’t know its right machine for VHS, but that is super interesting, unique design. I wish there was more information about it online, and more videos of it cutting things.
Here is a good review of the printrbot crawlbot my makezine

A video of them assembling it

I have been reading lots of reviews of the X-Carve and it sounds like a really good tool. Great software (VCarve), lots of safety systems and ways to protect its users from doing something stupid. Great video tutorials online, Lots of integration into Autodesk fusion 360, lots of positive reviews, a community that supports it. Its also priced very reasonably at ~$1400 +shipping, +tax…

I just wish it was BIGGER. Max size of 800 x 800mm (31" x 31"). Will not do a half sheet of plywood. We would be cutting ever sheet of plywood twice to fit into this machine. A lot of the open source furniture designs are all made for a half/full sheet of plywood. I like everything about this machine but its max size. Maybe size actually don’t matter when compared to the price difference and feature list.

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Just running the numbers on XCarve

  • DeWalt 611 Spindle and Mount
  • 1000mm Rail Kit
  • NOT INCLUDING “1000mm Waste Board Kit - [Less $128.00]”

$1,271.90
$80.14 Shipping to Blaine, WA
$1352.04 Sub total in USD

Exchange rate: 1 USD = 1.31609 CAD

$1,779.41 CAD

@garthomite You mentioned that we should consider looking into a water cooled spindle if we do get a CNC Router. Why was that again ?

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Yeah a VFD spindle would be better, either air cooled or water cooled. I see a lot of people get cheap Chinese ones for about $200-$400, they are much quieter compared to routers also smaller and better at maintaining a constant RPM.

I’m not sure what size you would use on an xcarve, perhaps an 800w one.

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You’ll need to allow for 12% tax on that.

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could you find out from the suppliers if there is anyone local who has one that we could go see in action or pump for info on it?

I’m leary with these hobby machines and their rigidity.

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Also suggest you budget at least few hundred for a hepa shop vac and associated fittings to keep the air clean. I have a festool, expensive but lungs are expensive too http://www.amazon.ca/Festool-583492-CT-26-Extractor/dp/B003XWAZ9S

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Something like this

Or is this kind of thing overkill ?
Edit I have no idea how loud something like this would be either

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After taking a quick look on inventables’s forums I found this.

It looks like most people are just using a regular shop vac, and some people are using expensive ones that do extra things like HEPA and low noise. There looks to be many plans available online for making encloses for shopvac to reduce the noise.

I am not an expert in dust or shop vacuums. @Stevemopolis you have a home shop, What do you use?

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I use a dust collector with a 1 micron filter canister similar to this one:

https://www.kmstools.com/general-international-1-5-hp-dust-collector-2172

HEPA filters are great but there is a significant ongoing expense of replacing filters. I also run a chip separation canister between my machines and the dust collector to make emptying it easier but that reduces the effective CFM rating of the system.

For the VHS I would recommend something like this dust collector:

https://www.kmstools.com/general-international-1hp-2-bag-dust-collector-2171

It is easy to move from machine to machine, is relatively inexpensive and gets everything down to 2 microns. You can occasionally find them on Craigslist.

The only things that generate dust smaller than 2 microns are sanders. Planers, tablesaws, routers and CNC routers spit out chips as opposed to dust so expensive canisters or HEPA filters aren’t really required.

In my experience, for woodshop dust collection, shop vacs don’t pull enough air, are noisier, more expensive and need to be emptied too often. However, it’s never a bad idea to have a decent shop vac for cleaning up the shop area and vacuuming out the inside and around shop machines.

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We probably do not need sound damping with this. Only 77db, much quieter than a shop vac.
If we did, we could enclose the motor and fan in a sound damping enclosure.

No it is NOT over kill.

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Hi guys

You may want to take a look at www.buildyourcnc.com. Might be the right balance of size vs. price.

I’ve had one of the Blacktoe models (2’x4’) at work for probably around 4 years now. I cut a lot of dense foam and sheet aluminum, I’ve also cut UHMW, sintra, lots of wood (3/4" ply), acrylics, and milled a few PCBs (kinda tedious, we have an Othermill now which is better). Maybe some other things, basically I find you can mill most anything given the right feeds and speeds and considering lack of cooling.

Before I go sounding even more like a spambot, I’ve visited your space on an open house night, was just cruising your forum and signed up to contribute to this thread. I don’t work for the CNC company and can arrange if someone wants to check it out in person.

Anyway… it takes a lot of setup, basically I had to completely wire it and come up with all the microswitch mounting and activation. It is a kit, no question, but the machine I have is a workhorse. Sometimes it runs all day as fast as I can put material on it. I completely burned out a decent porter-cable router, I think last time I checked (a year ago?) the X and Y axes had run about 170 miles each.

Not much maintenance, i’ve got spares of most everything but haven’t needed any other than the router. It’s precise enough that I’ve engraved 8 point text in aluminum (again tedious… laser much better) and cut traces for 0805 components. Not the most flat bed in existence but hey, it’s wood. I have a MDF spoil board that I mill down when it needs it, I’m probably on my 4th of those.

I use Cambam for tool paths and Mach3 for the machine. Ridgid shop vac with a chip collector (the foam creates tons of waste volume).

If you poke around his (not the best designed) site, he has 4’x8’ machines and larger, and spindles.

Anyway… thought that might be helpful info. Let me know if you have any questions.

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There are two reasons that we are looking for an “off the shelf” CNC Router.

  1. Originality we want it to be as “easy to use” and with all the safety mechanises built in. The “easy to use” part seems to be disappearing as it looks like most good CAD packages (Fusion 360, etc…) include CAM software now.

  2. The main reason is, we don’t have a CNC router expert/member available to us that is willing to put in the time to help us get started. This is the taking ownership of this project. I feel comfortable I could get a XCarve or a Shopbot up and running but I don’t feel comfortable with a DIY version.

I am not an expert, I have never owned, built, or repaired a CNC router before. I have used a Shopbot for about ~130 hours now and I know what they can do but that’s about it. I am also the primary “pusher” for this project.

Its really useful to have your input as someone that actually owns a CNC router. I welcome any input you have as you probably are the most experienced person here. :slight_smile:

Notes from slack

@Big_Mak:

Spindle wise you may be looking to get something that’s easily replaceable at first as with a bunch of noobs, you may be replacing that the most. :open_mouth:

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I built/own a 4x4’ CNC router, and have built a smaller version from buildyourcnc.com before

from my experience putting the hardware/electronics together isn’t a big issue, it’s all pretty much off the shelf. The biggest pain is squaring everything to within a certain standard of accuracy.

I think building a CNC is a great way to learn about CNC, but it is a huge time sink. Without a kit it took me weeks just to get all the parts together. I actually have a bunch of parts I could donate (specifically a gecko g540 driver system), but I’m not really comfortable driving this thing given the projects I have going.

shopvac is definitely not enough for dust collection. A cheap dust collector is a must. HEPA filter won’t work well imo, the boot on the router/spindle you’re using won’t be air tight and dust will come out regardless.

Aside from that, I don’t think there’s enough space for a 4x8’ router at the current location? Maybe a smaller 2x4’ or something would be a better start.

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It took me about a week to get the whole thing together and running (not full time but primary task), that’s 8 hour days work week so yeah it would be a big job for a collective no doubt. But there is a pretty big price difference so if it’s even possible to get one, it may be more reasonable to spend time instead of money. The setup videos aren’t bad, if you guys use 3D printers and know your way around a shop and electronics you would be able to get this together. They’re really just a collection of steppers and limit switches.

Ease of use can be deceiving, yes lots of programs have CAM built-in but that’s just producing your g-code. The machine control software can make the real difference. We had (have? might be on a shelf somewhere) a smaller CNC before the Blacktoe that ran proprietary software, it was a real pain to use and quite a relief to get working in Mach3. When things really go sideways you’re standing in front of the machine control software, seeing a good demo of that could really inform your decision if choosing between machines.

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I am getting a lot of feedback from people I have been calling directly and emailing. Mostly other hack spaces, small community shops and a few prop shops for movies. Getting anything that has a cutting area of less then a half sheet 4x4 ft (1220x12220 mm ) cutting area is very limiting unless you have a specific project already in mind. This would exclude the XCARVE because it only has a 2.6 ft (800mm) cutting area. I just wish this machine was bigger.

I have been told that, building your own CNC router is very similar to a 3D printer build, time consuming but not technically hard. I been told to spend my money on the controller first (as @Squint suggested) and big steppers.

Agreed, it would be hard to fit a larger CNC router in our current space. I guess we will have to move or expand in to #105 :eviljack_o_lantern: I am working on getting the money (hard part) first, and leaving the placement up to the spaceorg committee.

This is such a hard, unclear choice.
I am going to keep working on getting the money together, doing my research. Unless a really good option presents its self, I will probably just let the committee select the CNC router we end up going with.

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